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Trevor

Posted 2010-02-08 3:44 PM (#20311)
Subject: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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I read a post by Chewbacca today on the 101 Globes and it had the best idea so far that I have heard to improve M59. Based on his ideas, and some others, this is a list of some major changes that I think would really improve M59.

1: Incorporate Raza into Marion, and give it non-PVP building zone up to 40 or 50hps. You could put the M59 museum in Marion, and let new players experience the game while not being cut out from the community, which after all is the only reason why anyone would want to play this game.

2: Remove angels entirely. Ever since the 1/3rd damage limit was put into place, there is no reason to have them. A 20hp character will get PKd just as quickly as a 45hp - or even 60+hps character would depending on the damage done by the PKer. All angels do is allow players to scout and mule without risk. Imagine how excellent it would be if you could set traps for your enemies and they would actually fall into them themselves, instead of running around on a mule first to make sure it is clear. PKers would not be able to scout for hunters before leaving the cities. Also, players who already have 5 mules will not have a building advantage over others unless they want to risk dying and losing all of their loot. Simply increase room chest and vault capacity by 100% or even 200%, and you will then curtail the use of reg-holding mules.

3: Get rid of faction loss. For all of NDS's updates to PVP with shields and wars, making colored characters lose faction when attacking a white from their own faction SEVERELY crippled PVP. Orange and red characters, without faction, are extremely weak compared to their white counterparts with faction. Faction makes a huge difference. Reds are already penalized with worse log off penalties, worse death penalties, and revenants - at least let them have faction. If people were not so heavily penalized by going colored, you would have people who would actually fight eachother for little things like kill stealing, or trash talking, or intimidating a friend, or helping a PKer. Now, the only coloreds are PKers.

I think these three changes would really make the game more fun, balanced, and get a lot more PVP going.

Auguste Sentinel

Posted 2010-02-08 5:12 PM (#20319 - in reply to #20311)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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I like the idea of #2. The guardian angel is annoying.

Studio Ghibli

Posted 2010-02-08 5:27 PM (#20320 - in reply to #20311)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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I like all three.

Especially two, though.

Aero

Posted 2010-02-08 6:32 PM (#20323 - in reply to #20311)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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Problem with removing angels is the fact that people can run death mules at will.

Trevor

Posted 2010-02-08 9:15 PM (#20339 - in reply to #20323)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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You mean as in somebody rolling up a 20hp char to grief coloreds who are already out?

There are a lot of possible ways to fix that.

Reign

Posted 2010-02-08 8:02 PM (#20333 - in reply to #20311)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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it'd be nice if the justicars these days weren't such dickheads n not charge for pardons, there should be some kinda example set, something like if a pker gets pardoned he cant recieve another 1 for a meridian year, if you look at justicars book it seems the same ppl getting pardoned over n over, and maybe throw in more pardoneds so ppl wouldnt be afraid to color more often. Also making someways of not penalizing same factions for hitting each other that way diff guilds both cess or jonas can still fight each other making it more of guild shielded instead of just shielded

Gar

Posted 2010-02-08 9:53 PM (#20341 - in reply to #20311)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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I like removing angels. We've actually had these changes on the table on this board for a month or two. I don't care about faction loss. Honestly, I think people complaining about it just make characters with bad stats or don't know how to use buffs correctly. Go ahead and remove it, why not.

But there's a few problems. Removing angels won't do much, because there will still be unguilded characters to scout and interfere in cities, and 20 hp white characters that will scout outside of cities. Go colored on the 20 hper, add to your pens, get zero loot.... and the death mule scout comes right back out.

There is literally no way at all to remove scout mules from the game. The best thing that could be done to mitigate mules is to remove Purify and Truce entirely.

Drask

Posted 2010-02-09 7:52 AM (#20357 - in reply to #20341)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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Gar - 2010-02-08 11:53 PM

But there's a few problems. Removing angels won't do much, because there will still be unguilded characters to scout and interfere in cities

Remove that as well :-)

Everyone on the same level!

Actually, I think it's stupid that many have to unguild when they need to be protected in town for a while. Being guilded shouldn't be an handicap.

Trevor

Posted 2010-02-09 12:32 PM (#20377 - in reply to #20341)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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Gar - 2010-02-08 12:53 AM
But there's a few problems. Removing angels won't do much, because there will still be unguilded characters to scout and interfere in cities, and 20 hp white characters that will scout outside of cities. Go colored on the 20 hper, add to your pens, get zero loot.... and the death mule scout comes right back out.

Removing angels would mean that you would have to have a dedicated scout mule that you would not mind dying on. If we go back to pay to play, that is another empty slot people would have to pay for in order to have that advantage. It would do more than just lessen scout mules - it would also even the playing field for building. People would not be able to OOK their chars to 120hps in a few hours without risking dying on the mules.

Removing angels would also force people out of the cities on their mains as they would no longer be able to keep their chars in Fams and do all of their errands with mules. I don't think many people would be running around with regs and cash on a mule if they would be PKd.

I really see the ultimate benefit of removing angels as really putting a dent in the mule support that the established players use to have a huge building advantage, and to run around in a PVP game without the risk of being attacked.

I want to see the game get back to a point where people only have a few built characters at max, and no more of this 10 buffed chars siting Fams waiting to jump while the driver is running around on a mule looking for targets.

Abjurer

Posted 2010-02-09 1:55 AM (#20349 - in reply to #20311)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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I like all the ideas!

Gongsunzan

Posted 2010-02-09 5:21 AM (#20353 - in reply to #20311)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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I like #3. Others I don't see as being very necessary.

Azzod

Posted 2010-02-09 10:53 AM (#20369 - in reply to #20311)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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Buffs self-castable only again
Max spawn rate in each zone
Lower weapon drop spam
Magical weapons different colour name in get box

-- in that order of priority :-)

Gar

Posted 2010-02-09 11:12 AM (#20370 - in reply to #20311)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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Buffs self-castable only again

Buffs are self-only in safe zones, and reds/oranges can't be buffed without the caster going orange. Mules buffing others hasn't been a problem in like 7 years. I'll never understand why people are still asking for this : p

Edited by Gar 2010-02-09 11:12 AM

Glamdring

Posted 2010-02-09 11:12 AM (#20371 - in reply to #20311)
Subject: RE: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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How about keeping angels till 30, and having buffs be self-castable during "angel time" only. Once you hit 30, game on. No going back to 29 from death, either.

Building would be too much of a grind if all buffs were self-castable only.

Studio Ghibli

Posted 2010-02-09 1:30 PM (#20379 - in reply to #20311)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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There's a fellow on the Globes suggesting that we simply make all spells uncastable in town--except, I imagine, if you're colored or in a guild.

Towns only allow registered spell casters?

Gar

Posted 2010-02-09 2:51 PM (#20386 - in reply to #20311)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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No casting by unguilded in towns still leaves the problem of white guilded purify mules. So does removing angels. All of this still means that every person or group will have to have a batallion of red characters to deal with the griefing bullshit that's still in the game. I'm all for removing angels, but it's just one of a list of things that needs to be changed to cut out the cancer that is this game's mule system.

They already have whole accounts dedicated purely to just griefing OOK or purifying. So the griefers and power players will still have scout mules, while most normal players won't. This would actually make things worse. I actually wish they'd put a 'spirit walking' spell in the game that every character would get to allow them to scout ahead with mains instead of alt chars. If you can't remove scouting, then everyone should have it, instead of just some people.

People would not be able to OOK their chars to 120hps in a few hours without risking dying on the mules.

Personally I think angelled chars should not be allowed to even enter the caves or go to the island at all, sort of like how they can't go in guildhalls. Then the safespots all over the island should be made PvP-on. The island is a grief / carebear fest thanks to all the mules and safespots around. OOK would be a source of fun and PvP if there were no mules and no safespot four seconds away.

Leo

Posted 2010-02-10 3:18 PM (#20410 - in reply to #20311)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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1. Put a Hitpoint limit on Truce/Purify. Make it require about 80 hitpoints., or 61, etc.

2. Ban truce from towns, Purify can be cast once every 5 seconds who are guilded.

3. Ban truce from towns, Purify can be cast on someone only if they're in the same guild, or haven't been attacked in the past 10 minutes.

Keep Angels.

Edited by Leo 2010-02-10 3:19 PM

Gar

Posted 2010-02-10 7:35 PM (#20419 - in reply to #20311)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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I hate to keep cutting up people's ideas, but we need a 100% airtight change or the griefers will simply find the loophole and keep abusing.

1. Put a Hitpoint limit on Truce/Purify. Make it require about 80 hitpoints., or 61, etc.

The abusers already use builts for truce/purify. This won't change anything.

2. Ban truce from towns, Purify can be cast once every 5 seconds who are guilded.

Banning truce in towns is a start, but it won't eliminate the problem elsewhere. Also, purify every 5 seconds is still a big advantage in fights.

3. Ban truce from towns, Purify can be cast on someone only if they're in the same guild, or haven't been attacked in the past 10 minutes.

I actually like the purify-only-between-guildmates idea. Except it still allows one big loophole: soldier shield users can have non-shielded guildmates purify them.

The best idea is probably a 10 minute timer for attacking AND being attacked by players. During this ten minute timer you can't be purified by anyone but a guildmate using the same soldier shield as you (or both must have none at all).

Varuka

Posted 2010-02-13 2:45 PM (#20579 - in reply to #20419)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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Gar - 2010-02-10 7:35 PM
I actually like the purify-only-between-guildmates idea. Except it still allows one big loophole: soldier shield users can have non-shielded guildmates purify them.

The best idea is probably a 10 minute timer for attacking AND being attacked by players. During this ten minute timer you can't be purified by anyone but a guildmate using the same soldier shield as you (or both must have none at all).

This seems like an odd work-around.

If your goal is to have non-combatants unable to assist combatants without joining the fight, why not use an "infectious pvp" system:

All players get tagged according to how they can PVP without going colored. If I picked up a Jonas shield, and I'm in the guild MIM, I would have the tags [Jonas] , [MIM]. Anyone who casts a spell on me picks up those tags for some period of time (maybe something like 5 mins, and if attacked it refreshes?), and can be attacked as if they were also [Jonas] and [MIM]. Toss the tags in the player bio... throw different colored halos on them, send a message to the tags enemies in the room, whatever it takes to make it noticeable.. and maybe add in a "Don't interfere with combat safety", so newbies don't get screwed by it.

If you allow 20hpers to get tagged for combat.. it removes concerns about angels, too, I think?

Granted, it's a more complex system, but at least it DIRECTLY addresses the issue "Player Y is casting on my enemy X, and I can't do anything about it because I'd go colored (and then being ganked by his 50 friends)." Instead it changes to "Player Y is casting on enemy X, and now has entered the fight.".. which is a pretty accurate description of the situation, no?

Ori2010

Posted 2010-02-10 8:06 PM (#20420 - in reply to #20311)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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What I ask for is simple. Making it happen, well that's the challenge.

2 Changes.

One to offer a compromise to the discussion and another because I've been asking for it since the first year I started playing.

1. Attackable players can't cast on non-attackable players and vice versa. If you couldn't hit em right now, you can't cast on em. It doesn't matter the spell, nothing. attackbles spells have no effect on non-atackables and vice versa (any player effects including heals, splashes, AEs, EQ, Walls, Potions, etc.) (that means truce doesn't mean crap if a char casts it that you couldn't kill in the first place.)

2. Logging, remove the instantaneous logging for anyone. It doesn't exist. When players disconnect their characters should stay logged on. However this is accomplished (including continuing any combat they are involved in, and defending against any attacks by using something akin to Mob logic) players should not be able to escape battle. It's a huge problem that benefits quick strikes against the standing defense, and has shaped M59 pvp in a bad way for many years. People play around the cheat like it's a game mechanic, they time their RPK runs so they can keep their pens clear every day.... It's not a system to be gamed, it's a flaw that people are abusing...

Edited by Ori2010 2010-02-10 8:13 PM

Beumac

Posted 2010-02-10 11:32 PM (#20421 - in reply to #20420)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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Ok lets be clear about logging.

We get that back in the day people just hadn't figured out they could just log and/or didn't log.

Then, people went HEY, I'm gonna log so I don't lose all my shit!

So what happened.

The gods blessed the attackers with the ability to still inflict harm by penning the characters over and over.

The log off ghosts were introduced as a fix and I'm sorry if that bothers you but taking away the ability to log will just end PvP as we know it anyways. Ego's are to big and people plain old don't wanna end up losing everything they have, especially the casual players.

This is NOT a CHEAT! It has been accepted and worked on in a way so that it's NOT safe. Same reason flashing on and off fucks up blind timers and whatnot making them longer. It's been tweaked and changed in many ways for a reason, don't pretend you somehow know better.

Now, I understand your frustration. I've been there but seriously think about the real problem here. The MULES are the problem, if it weren't for the mules it would be MORE pvp coming to save their friend from penning.

players should not be able to escape battle.

They aren't escaping battle, that's what pens are for.

It's a huge problem that benefits quick strikes against the standing defense

I'm not sure if you're just not making sense here but how does this benefit the offense more than the defense?

People play around the cheat like it's a game mechanic, they time their RPK runs so they can keep their pens clear every day.... It's not a system to be gamed, it's a flaw that people are abusing...

Except it was implemented on purpose to fix it. After that happened it's no more an exploit than baiting and firewalling.

Also you seem to look at everything in the worst way possible. Instead of seeing this as a plus side on your end because the pkers can only do one run a day and it keeps them from going over board griefing everyone. Would you rather them come after the server as often as they like?

Also, it was NOT like this when I was playing. Reds were used and reds penned LOTS and the loot/pens in A LOT of cases were worse than taking a god damn death.

There have been many pens that completely destroy a character. In fact, when my account was stolen and someone went random on my pure mage (pooty tang) He too took one of these char destroying pens which left him a mule for the rest of his meridian career, he's still just a mule with crappy spell percents and under 30 hps now from being damn near fully built.

Ghosts DO create more pvp, that would NEVER happen otherwise. I mean fuck it's been a tactic to use a bait ghost in TOS for people like ken for years. They get them guarding a ghost so they can get some PvP out of them.

It is my opinion that if you got rid of ghosts, less people would play and the people that did play would avoid PvP a lot more causing an over all boring game of PVE.

So please, think about this again Ori2010 because it's not the ghosts ruining and shaping the PvP in a bad way, it's the mules coming in to ruin it all. Without them, ghosts would encourage more pvp and coincidentally, they still do. Get rid of the mule bullshit and they would encourage it even more.

TL;DR

IMO asking to get rid of ghosts is like asking to remove soldiers from being able to take land because they have to sit there and wait for PvP.

Change number 1 is a great suggestion though Ori2010. I hate it because of kran building but I believe your change outweighs my issue with it.

Drask

Posted 2010-02-11 8:33 AM (#20437 - in reply to #20421)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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I strongly disagree with you.

From what I can remember (it was a long long long time ago), Logoff Ghost were implemented because people were abusing (logging off in PvP having no penalties) AND also because, back in the old days, it was difficult to make the difference between logging off and loosing server's connection. Almost everyone were using unstable dial-up modems.

We're in 2010 now. The world of internet has changed.. fast and reliable connections, and I think it's not a crime to ask for evolution in a 16 years old game.

I agree with you on one thing. Removing ghost and not balancing PvP would definitely kill the PvP itself. I don't think people would PvP in WoW if they were loosing one level when they die. Loosing one HPs and all those % is almost like loosing one level in those games.

About logoff ghost being a PvP feature, I'm not ever going to buy that from anyone. No way 3do thought: "Hey guys, I have a great idea. New PvP feature that will allow people to camp ghost for 10 minutes, fun fun fun!!!". This is just ridiculous, even implementing logoff ghosts was a great move at that time.

However, I understand old hardcore players to be resistant to major changes. They developed strategies and skills with the current PvP system, why would they want it to change? Still, many of them are open minded enough to consider removal of logoff ghosts.

Edited by Drask 2010-02-11 8:37 AM

Makoeyes21

Posted 2010-02-11 9:41 AM (#20438 - in reply to #20437)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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Removing logoff ghosts would not only destroy PVP but the game itself. High level pkers, and great drivers could literally run rampant and make it IMPOSSIBLE to build, and or PVP without getting your character destroyed. Not being a great driver, I can totally relate to this. I wouldn't stick around to get my ass beat.

If you want the same 10 people soiling over broadcast for the duration of Meridian, then yeah, go ahead and remove logoff ghosts.

I specifically only PVP when I have a pen available. And that's because losing stat points SUCKS. Far more annoying than equipment. I would be in favor of removing ghosts, if the only pen to death was the inventory drop.

Edited by Makoeyes21 2010-02-11 9:44 AM

Drask

Posted 2010-02-11 11:32 AM (#20442 - in reply to #20438)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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Of course, as I said, PvP and penalties must be balanced if they're going to remove logoff ghosts!

About pkers.. think about it twice. Yeah, PKers can wander around and kill as they want.. but don't you think that a PKer can be totally screwed if he doesn't have the ability to log off anymore? It's a 2 sided-blade.

Your post just made me think about something..

Remove ghosts. Change the free pen into free Death. Yes, you can die once in a day without any penalty (maybe just your equipment). Then, if you die again, you have "reduced penalties" (I suggested 0.5 hps and your 3 highest % in another topic). Then we have as much (if not more) PvP as we have right now.

Really, I don't mean to destroy the game. If they're going to implement major changes, maybe they should have a beta server (on which they gave us already built characters) so we can test things out. I just feel like few old hardcore players are totally close to any major gameplay change and keep saying "That's how it has always been, so it shouldn't change", or "If you change the gameplay, people will leave" when someone brings something new.

Edited by Drask 2010-02-11 11:41 AM

RebelM59

Posted 2010-02-11 11:52 AM (#20443 - in reply to #20438)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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Makoeyes21 - 2010-02-11 11:41 AM

Removing logoff ghosts would not only destroy PVP but the game itself. High level pkers, and great drivers could literally run rampant and make it IMPOSSIBLE to build, and or PVP without getting your character destroyed. Not being a great driver, I can totally relate to this. I wouldn't stick around to get my ass beat.

If you want the same 10 people soiling over broadcast for the duration of Meridian, then yeah, go ahead and remove logoff ghosts.

I specifically only PVP when I have a pen available. And that's because losing stat points SUCKS. Far more annoying than equipment. I would be in favor of removing ghosts, if the only pen to death was the inventory drop.

Completely agree here. Because if enough pks were out and about and we have some good ones now. They can elusion around kill off everyone and noone could log.

Ori2010

Posted 2010-02-11 7:19 PM (#20456 - in reply to #20421)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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The whole point of the no-logging ideal is that there's plenty of opportunity to escape. Hell I carry rescue pots, chalices, blind/hold wand etc. People *already* have so many ways of getting away, logging is the 0th escape from battle technique. You learn it as soon as you die a few times to pk. It is treated as a game mechanic, and it shouldn't be.

Boo, you're right in many respects, people who are completely reliant on logging, will have to learn how to pvp or escape the other 99 ways they can without logging off. (Don't forget mana bomb means that qor mage can't blind+hold you again and keep you from running away!!) It's a bug. And the logoff ghosts were really a patch on a patch. If you recall, prior to logoff ghosts there was another fix for what happens when users are disconnected... You used to get LAG deaths. These were experienced if you had an increase in latency, or dropped connection completely just prior to dying. You kept everything, it was like a POL death.

So what did people do? Well Rev can tell you what he did (unplugged his cable from his cable modem) and as soon as it was apparent what was going on it got gamed all to hell... Then it was removed entirely. This meant people who had legitimate lag problems lost their shit when they died. That sucks for them, and I was one of those suckers on dialup till 2002 or so. SO it sucked for me, but I would rather have a little bit of suckage than have to play a game with rose colored lenses to ignore what's obviously an unintentional side effect of a game design.

It's a BUG. Pressing Alt+F4 is not described in the manual as "This is how you escape battle. Remember keep your fingers placed over these keys while you play, so you can avoid having to deal with the thing that makes this game so great: PVP."

It's still not fixed. With logoff ghosts, at least there's a stopgap in place, but it has always needed fixing. And camping logoff ghosts, that's a ridiculous argument. If the person hadn't logged off in the first place, the combat would be over with. And again, that is a strike vs defense situation and the defender being the logger has no chance vs those who are camping them. More overbalancing of offense over defense.

Lay it out:
45 hp lvl 5 faren lvl 5 qor runs in blinds holds and starts shattering the hell out of you. You target and hit him once, he logs off. You now have to camp his ghost to enforce a pen. He logs on another shatter mule does it again etc. Where does the defender have a chance on their own vs this enemy? Unless they get the jump on the person the shaterrer can use their mana and log and be at no risk... That's not how the game was meant to be.

Black Molly

Posted 2010-02-11 12:18 PM (#20444 - in reply to #20311)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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PKers will always have the advantage unless there is a concerted hunter effort. Being able to elusion and rescue around gives the PKs the ability to avoid most fights that they would have a significant chance to lose. Only with Hunters who were willing to camp choke points to building areas (Spore the inside of CV, for instance) would PKs ever be at a disadvantage in a ghost-less system. the way the community is now, PKers are mostly alts of the PvPers, meaning the pool of hunters is incredibly small and not geared towards this aim.

It seems appropriate for some kind of "Be the change..." message to appear here...

Edited by Black Molly 2010-02-11 12:23 PM

Ori2010

Posted 2010-02-11 7:33 PM (#20458 - in reply to #20444)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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Apply the scenario you did to both sides of the coin. A Pker runs out and gacks a noob (this happens already, so no logging means this happens more AKA MORE PVP.) This triggers the hunters to action:

### SOANDSO was murdered in cold blood.
PersonWithSeance sends, "Ahh crap PKerGuy again, he's got cloak up."
PersonWithMorals sends, "Holy shit SOANDSO had a neru bow"
PersonWithNoMorals sends, "Getting Swap regs, and i'll camp BQ elu spot with SB."
PersonWithMorals sends, "Ok I got a web up in tos."
PKerSpy sends, "dudes I'm going to Cor Noth, they're camping BQ and Tos."
PKerSpy sends, "umm I guess it goes without saying that was a mistel"
PKerSpy has been removed from the guild.
PersonWithMorals sends, "Ok going to CN."
### PKerGuy was killed by PersonWithMorals
PersonWithMorals broadcasts, "Hey SOANDSO i've got your neru bow in the zoo, come get it."

Now you can point out the current failings with the above by thinking about what ELU means to a pker. Currently it's not only a travel mechanism but an escape mechanism to a safe point (Aerie is impropper, it should be either the Riija temple or the actual city space.) Also, Marion's illusion point should be outside at the blink spot in WMW but, I digress.

Because of logging, nobody looks deep enough to fix these balance issues, because well why bother when they can just log after they elu anyways....

Gar

Posted 2010-02-11 12:52 PM (#20446 - in reply to #20311)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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Of course, as I said, PvP and penalties must be balanced if they're going to remove logoff ghosts!

Which is where the argument against logoff ghosts falls apart - in rebalanced details.

Holds that last 0.5 seconds. Blasts of fire that do 12. Arrows that do 8. Purges that remove one buff at a time, at random.

There's a reason games with no logging have such slow and boring PvP. If you restrict combat results down to be just win, run, or death, with no in-betweens, then 'run' must be made far easier. Therefore, holds that last 0.5 seconds and arrows that do 8. Players would have to be able to run from practically anywhere to a safe zone with a reasonable chance of success. PvP would become more about chasing people (like in other, shittier MMOs) than about fighting people.

Ori2010

Posted 2010-02-11 7:38 PM (#20459 - in reply to #20446)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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This is entirely my point.

The game has never been balanced properly. All the existing adjustments are AROUND a game flaw.

So, what is being argued against is making the game work the way it was intended.

You want the biggest thing that can be rolled back once logging is disabled? Faction Loss. Why penalize simply attacking someone anymore? It doesn't make any sense when you're basically comitting to a life or death combat situation...

Aero

Posted 2010-02-11 3:52 PM (#20452 - in reply to #20311)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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PvP on World of Warcraft is not slow and boring. Nor is it far easier to "run".

It's easy as hell to run away in Meridian 59. PvP is constantly chasing people around. I agree with Gar a lot, but then he comes in with a post like this. It makes zero sense, and is pulled out of his ass.

Get caught off Guard in WoW in the wrong place and your finished, in the blink of an eye. Every class has snare/stuns. Meridian 59 is the pinnacle of easy when it comes to fleeing. Anyone can run in and out of doors faster than 90% of the players could blind.

All I can really say is there's obviously two distinct groups of people here. One group thinks the game should be toned down as far as death penalties. The other group thinks that's what makes Meridian 59 "cool". I don't think it's what makes Meridian 59 cool. I think the PvP is mostly bullshit, because 95% of the players spend 95% of the time not pvping. Everyone is so freaked out about dying, and i think its stupid. Log man log!

Anonymous

Posted 2010-02-11 4:14 PM (#20453 - in reply to #20452)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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Aero - 2010-02-11 3:52 PM

PvP on World of Warcraft is not slow and boring. Nor is it far easier to "run".

It's easy as hell to run away in Meridian 59. PvP is constantly chasing people around. I agree with Gar a lot, but then he comes in with a post like this. It makes zero sense, and is pulled out of his ass.

Get caught off Guard in WoW in the wrong place and your finished, in the blink of an eye. Every class has snare/stuns. Meridian 59 is the pinnacle of easy when it comes to fleeing. Anyone can run in and out of doors faster than 90% of the players could blind.

All I can really say is there's obviously two distinct groups of people here. One group thinks the game should be toned down as far as death penalties. The other group thinks that's what makes Meridian 59 "cool". I don't think it's what makes Meridian 59 cool. I think the PvP is mostly bullshit, because 95% of the players spend 95% of the time not pvping. Everyone is so freaked out about dying, and i think its stupid. Log man log!

Seriously, I couldn't have said it better myself, and that's why I'm all for a lessened death penalty so that doing away with logging finally becomes a viable option. Back when this was my first game, I didn't know any better, but when it shut down and I had to find new online games, I came to realize how unevolved this game's death system was, and how it was indirectly choking pvp.

Those of you in favor of the current death system, don't you want to be able to pvp more often, with your focus being on killing your opponents rather than when you should log off? Or is watching logoff ghosts and flashing for an hour actually fun?

Boesicus

Posted 2010-02-11 6:08 PM (#20455 - in reply to #20452)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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Aero - 2010-02-11 11:52 PM

PvP on World of Warcraft is not slow and boring. Nor is it far easier to "run".

It's easy as hell to run away in Meridian 59. PvP is constantly chasing people around. I agree with Gar a lot, but then he comes in with a post like this. It makes zero sense, and is pulled out of his ass.

Get caught off Guard in WoW in the wrong place and your finished, in the blink of an eye. Every class has snare/stuns. Meridian 59 is the pinnacle of easy when it comes to fleeing. Anyone can run in and out of doors faster than 90% of the players could blind.

All I can really say is there's obviously two distinct groups of people here. One group thinks the game should be toned down as far as death penalties. The other group thinks that's what makes Meridian 59 "cool". I don't think it's what makes Meridian 59 cool. I think the PvP is mostly bullshit, because 95% of the players spend 95% of the time not pvping. Everyone is so freaked out about dying, and i think its stupid. Log man log!

WOW PvP was fun as long as there was real open-Pvp. After they invented the gym-arena-PvP it got boring like the PvP in all the other MMOs. So please don't change the only advantage M59 has over all the other games.

Gar

Posted 2010-02-11 5:20 PM (#20454 - in reply to #20311)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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Get caught off Guard in WoW in the wrong place and your finished, in the blink of an eye. Every class has snare/stuns. Meridian 59 is the pinnacle of easy when it comes to fleeing. Anyone can run in and out of doors faster than 90% of the players could blind.

Yeah but WoW has no death penalties. So it's a violent version of the Sims with no point.

I think the PvP is mostly bullshit, because 95% of the players spend 95% of the time not pvping. Everyone is so freaked out about dying, and i think its stupid. Log man log!

No, that's what YOU do. You, Ken, and everyone else who makes an organized system out of the same old 2 sided war thing where the only thing that ever happens is 'bait, zerg, zerg, mule'. There's plenty of other types of pvp and players in the game.

Lessened death penalties = pvp is pointless. This game is only fun because you hate your enemies and when you kill them you REALLY kill them. They drop and all their shit flies on the ground and gets looted. It's hilarious.

Those of you in favor of the current death system, don't you want to be able to pvp more often, with your focus being on killing your opponents rather than when you should log off? Or is watching logoff ghosts and flashing for an hour actually fun?

Flashing doesn't work that way anymore. Timers don't reset. And personally I don't want to 'pvp more often' if it means people die all the time and it doesn't matter.

Drask

Posted 2010-02-12 10:50 AM (#20523 - in reply to #20454)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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deleted

Edited by Drask 2010-02-12 10:50 AM

Studio Ghibli

Posted 2010-02-11 7:32 PM (#20457 - in reply to #20311)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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"Yeah but WoW has no death penalties. So it's a violent version of the Sims with no point. "

This.

Ori2010

Posted 2010-02-11 9:36 PM (#20469 - in reply to #20311)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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Wow is not m59.

PVP in m59 was a bit more balanced pre targetting, since well most things required a human do a couple actions and even the best players still had a little bit of a challenge moving, targetting and casting all at once with the old style controls. Now it's hotkey mania, we've all got fast connections and people can coordinate extremely well with external voice chat. Coordinating attacks is childsplay and you can throw down enough damage in less than 4-5 seconds to kill someone...

This is ridiculous. And as fast paced as M59 has always been, a 3 hit cap is also ridiculous, to need in the first place such a thing. When it was enforced it was because people were one shotting noobs. 1 hit killing someone from full hp. That's perfectly normal in other games, but not here because people aren't used to dying... at all... because they fight mobs in safe spots and can log from pvp. RPKs are the biggest benefactors of logging since they're the best ones at it, and the attacker always has the advantage since THEY can just log if it goes sideways, AND they have the initiative.

Edited by Ori2010 2010-02-11 9:38 PM

Beumac

Posted 2010-02-11 9:37 PM (#20470 - in reply to #20311)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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Ok awesome.

If we want to be technical and say WORK AS INTENDED we might as well throw in 3000ms for every player regardless of ping. I mean I feel like that is how ridiculous you are being to prove a point you've held on for so long that you refuse to let it go and it least look at things from more than one fucking way at a time.

You also have been saying it's for MORE pvp and then say you get less pvp at the same time. I really don't know what to say anymore.

You're also using things that do not even apply in all scenarios like mana bombing to prove a point. Mana bombing only works if you have more or roughly the same mana as your opponent. Otherwise they will still have the mana to log/kill you and lets not forget that once you mana bomb thats it, thats all you're probably going to do and the fight might as well be over because both parties will most likely just run after that or might as well have. Also, you make it sound like people will have to learn to pvp with other escapable methods as if everyone isn't already doing that. Then you seem to hate other escapable methods as well. I feel like you're holding onto an old thought that just doesn't have merrit anymore. Which is making you desperate at trying to win this argument and making it hard for me to take serious anymore.

Normally I'm good with quoting and breaking down posts to try to explain it from both sides but this is just getting ridiculous. There is no discussion with you, it's your way or the highway.

Ori2010

Posted 2010-02-11 9:49 PM (#20474 - in reply to #20470)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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Mana bomb was just one example, and you're right it's not always the answer. Knowing what the right answer is at the right time is very important to meridian pvp, or it would be if you couldn't just log if you f'd up and cast a dazzle before a purge.

Ori2010

Posted 2010-02-11 9:47 PM (#20473 - in reply to #20311)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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It's just fun to argue sometimes for the purposes of throwing shit up on the wall. And I think some of it stuck. But to your point, there will be less pvp from those who suck and log on the offensive. The people who pvp and enjoy excitement with a risk will pvp. Those who are afraid will do as they always do, and run but they can't do it by pressing a button (unless they've got a spell to do it.) I've said before, the landscape would change dramatically but PVP situations would be much more satisfying and relentless. Now people are afraid to run after folks when they're low too, cause they might die! OMG you might die and have to play m59 some more to get it back... I'd presume many of the things people do in frenzys to get that last kill before they die will ACTUALLY happen in regular m59 since group battles will definitely end in death for somebody.

The grasp on what was and what is as an essential necessity is easily understood. But do you have to continue to hold on so tight to something that was done before, no matter how wrong it was done?

So everyone knows how to log and does, that doesn't mean it's right or the way the game was intended.

Edited by Ori2010 2010-02-11 9:48 PM

Sowy

Posted 2010-02-11 10:16 PM (#20482 - in reply to #20311)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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/agrees with Ori entirely, if it weren't already obvious by my posts.

Makoeyes21

Posted 2010-02-11 10:42 PM (#20485 - in reply to #20311)
Subject: RE: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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It is about "time"...

Granted it would be fantastic to remove logging and have every fight be to the death. But on a max'd char is the 30-60 seconds of PvP worth the 6+ hours it takes to replace the %'s, and equipment lost if death occurs? Nope. Sorry. Not even worth discussion...

Ori2010

Posted 2010-02-11 10:51 PM (#20487 - in reply to #20485)
Subject: RE: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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Or you could see that that 60 seconds of combat should be longer, or the time it takes to recover less. At which point it could be adjusted to whatever is deemed "acceptable." Because you're way off on that 60 seconds mark. PVP is more like 10 seconds right now. 60 seconds might include the time it takes to get into range of your enemy, then ok yeah. But unless two shally mages stand punching each other while healing themselves it doesn't last that long.

Beumac

Posted 2010-02-12 1:25 AM (#20502 - in reply to #20311)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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Then you need to find different PvP. If all you ever do is fight in Tos with EQ mules. Ofcourse it's only going to last 10 seconds.

I'm so tired of hearing complaints on the system when no one does anything to change it. They just roll with the flow instead of pulling people out of the tired cycle of tos safety net PvP.

You are right, mana bomb is just ONE example and it's only ONE example I pulled from your post. You could pull any spell out of the book and it's still only one example. If you did pull every spell from the book would that change things and somehow make you right?

Not everyone fights like scared little girls and logs high. Some people do play with a more dangerous approach. I remember chasing a guy around fams at 10 hps and getting the kill and getting back in safely. It's no one elses fault if you're playing the safety net game. If it bores you, quit or do something about it in another way besides text.

To make things worse you're basically saying if you suck, don't pvp and run.

If you don't suck, pvp and Die.

Except just because you want it to be this way won't make it so. Not everyone plays the game the way you do and most would say fuck off I quit because of it. I'm glad you guys want to change the game to appease 5 people at the most but are we really addressing whats good for the game or are we just addressing personal agendas.

You forget that I too share the annoyance that is the ghosts, I'm not a huge fan of them but getting rid of them entirely would ruin whats left of the game. It's simply TOO BIG of a change at this point in meridian's life and I believe it would be a much more negative impact than positive.

I'll say it again, to me bitching about removing log off ghosts entirely is like asking to remove soldier shields because they can take/claim a screen but they have to sit there and wait for pvp so it sucks.

Also, you were talking about your free lag death experience a day. Is this not the same fucking thing? Except it's harsher because if you killed someone you take a full pen and if you play more than once a day you pen and I've already mentioned how bad pens can get I have a character that will never be anything more than a mule now because of a damn pen.

To me it's like people are scared to guard ghosts because they popped in and got the jump on someone but don't want to fight when the enemy is ready to come back for revenge. They'd rather run out gank and run back to safety.

You get rid of log off ghosts you get rid of the majority of the PvP.
You get rid of mule's and you make log off ghosts awesome. It encourages pvp and I'm starting to think you people are against that. I know you're saying other wise but it feels like there is an agenda here to make it more of a pop out gank/surprise so you can get back in without having to hold a position. Which only encourages more tos bullshit pvp.

Ori2010

Posted 2010-02-12 5:45 AM (#20511 - in reply to #20502)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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Boo, again I'll reiterate it's not the sitting and waiting so much as why you're sitting and waiting, to enforce a penalty that's a band-aid fix for a bad design. You're standing on a screen trying to gain soverignity for your faction, or nobly defending that soverignity. The benefit is tangible, and makes sense. I'm definitely not saying get rid of faction shields, keep them please they're a great way to get people to pvp.

And no, I'm serious about attackable vs non attackable. It solves the whole muling issue with minimal pain to folks who have legitimate uses for mules.

Ori2010

Posted 2010-02-12 5:37 AM (#20510 - in reply to #20311)
Subject: RE: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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You forget that I too share the annoyance that is the ghosts, I'm not a huge fan of them but getting rid of them entirely would ruin whats left of the game. It's simply TOO BIG of a change at this point in meridian's life and I believe it would be a much more negative impact than positive.

If the game can't take a change such as this, then you might as well leave everything the way it is. Because people will whine no matter what the change. Logging is a counterintuitive quasi-game mechanic that's been a flaw for so long that everyone uses it as normal... except noobs, they always have to be taught about logging... because it doesn't make any fucking sense.

RebelM59

Posted 2010-02-12 6:01 AM (#20512 - in reply to #20510)
Subject: RE: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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Ori2010 - 2010-02-12 7:37 AM

Im not on any one side here. Though I think both sides have good points. But lets also remember. This isn't a 2010 game people. This is a 1996 game that has some better perks then it did back when we were teens or younger playing. You also don't understand that with how meridian was made/updated that any changes of this calibur could royally fuck up the game. Meaning that this one fix if not changed won't kill the game. What killing the game for me at this point is cheats/mule abuse. Log off ghosts aren't a major fix atm. I mean I pvp but I don't have 300000 hours to build my char as I have a wife and two kids. So basically if I am out building and a pker comes up (BOF/HOLD/BLIND Character) I can't log so basically I run (but can be held) or I die. Thats fucking stupid. Because we forget that PVP isn't limited to those who LOVE to pvp it also includes those who just like to build.

It appears to me most of these changes that are being thrown out mostly this log off ghost seems to be from possible pvp'er types.

Sowy

Posted 2010-02-12 6:38 AM (#20513 - in reply to #20311)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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Beumac said - Then you need to find different PvP. If all you ever do is fight in Tos with EQ mules. Ofcourse it's only going to last 10 seconds. I'm so tired of hearing complaints on the system when no one does anything to change it. They just roll with the flow instead of pulling people out of the tired cycle of tos safety net PvP.

I totally agree with that post also. Half the muling and character train problems are solved by taking the fight out of Tos.

XYLUM

Posted 2010-02-12 7:02 AM (#20514 - in reply to #20311)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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I'm sorry but i think these proposed changes are all silly. If you screw up the way things work here, the magic that is meridian 59 will die... people will lose interest and population will fall and pvp will be dog shit, when there is any. People still play this old ass game because it is familiar and dynamic. You guys need to put down the crack pipe and make a thread about the broken spells/ item effects, or maybe suggestions about adding new areas or something, the sort of changes you guys are suggesting are not realistic.

And gar stop crying about purify and truce, the people that abuse it most... are in your guild. Grow a pair and color on the mules, or get over it, just please, for the love of god, don't make another post QQ'ing about it.

Ori2010

Posted 2010-02-12 10:16 AM (#20517 - in reply to #20514)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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If you're right, then why bother. The game is dying and should just be left on life support instead of modernizing gameplay for todays players who can choose to play any game they like...

tierfour04

Posted 2010-02-12 11:17 AM (#20528 - in reply to #20514)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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XYLUM - 2010-02-12 7:02 AM

make a thread about the broken spells/ item effects, or maybe suggestions about adding new areas or something, the sort of changes you guys are suggesting are not realistic.

This.

As for death penalties, here is a crude example: there are quite a few differences between having a broker and investing in the market and playing the Virtual Stock Exchange. Are you still following and care about what happens to the market? Yes. Does it remotely feel the same at the end of the day? No. Consequences matter.

We need to be more weary of drastic changes not knowing the unintended consequences. Sadly, as I read through this thread I am not sure if some of these desired changes are for the betterment of a particular person's play style or for the betterment of the game.

tf

Gar

Posted 2010-02-12 10:25 AM (#20519 - in reply to #20311)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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If you're right, then why bother. The game is dying and should just be left on life support instead of modernizing gameplay for todays players who can choose to play any game they like...

Who says the game is dying? Perhaps it's poor marketing and the business situation that caused population to drop so low. As for 'modernizing' gameplay, MMOs are actually negatively evolving and getting worse over time. In this case, modern is worse.

Ori2010

Posted 2010-02-12 10:30 AM (#20521 - in reply to #20519)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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When you stop growing and changing, you're dying... It's pretty simple. The Z's are making m59 grow again, and it's their vision, I hope it blossoms well. But no, I think the fatalist attitude of the game will die if you make X change is horseshit. Faction loss was an incredibly terrible change to the game which almost nobody liked, and yet people still play...

RebelM59

Posted 2010-02-12 10:53 AM (#20525 - in reply to #20521)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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Ori2010 - 2010-02-12 12:30 PM

When you stop growing and changing, you're dying... It's pretty simple. The Z's are making m59 grow again, and it's their vision, I hope it blossoms well. But no, I think the fatalist attitude of the game will die if you make X change is horseshit. Faction loss was an incredibly terrible change to the game which almost nobody liked, and yet people still play...

The if you change X the game will die is horseshit? Who says that if you change X it won't die from that change? You are acting as if we change all this shit it will grow and be so awesome everyone will flock to the game. I mean to be honest THAT's possible horseshit. No matter what is done/was done can affect the game. Changes don't necessarily mean that its going to help either. Please keep that in mind before you say that the idea if you change X = horseshit when that is a viable option as well. I can change my hair style but that might make me look worse than I already do. I mean change isn't always a positive impact.

Though I keep in my mind that a change isn't going to be a bad idea either. If Z's want to do away with something I will try it. But if I don't like it I have two options stay/leave. If they don't change it we might never know. So to that I agree. But no matter what changes are made someone won't be happy.

Edited by RebelM59 2010-02-12 10:56 AM

Ori2010

Posted 2010-02-12 11:04 AM (#20526 - in reply to #20525)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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It's horseshit, because people who wanna play will play and people who don't won't. If the Z's remove unintentional safe spots as well, the entire game would be different, and I would argue that's something that most definitely wouldn't ruin the game (since prior to it's addition in Revelations, or some would argue Fey with poggs) the game was actually MORE popular beforehand. And yet, I won't even go near recommending their removal because mobs are entirely balanced with that in mind. Someday perhaps, but logging is more important to fix in my mind.

Edited by Ori2010 2010-02-12 11:07 AM

RebelM59

Posted 2010-02-12 11:13 AM (#20527 - in reply to #20526)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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Ori2010 - 2010-02-12 1:04 PM

It's horseshit, because people who wanna play will play and people who don't won't. If the Z's remove unintentional safe spots as well, the entire game would be different, and I would argue that's something that most definitely wouldn't ruin the game (since prior to it's addition in Revelations, or some would argue Fey with poggs) the game was actually MORE popular beforehand. And yet, I won't even go near recommending their removal because mobs are entirely balanced with that in mind.

If you think that making a change can't kill a game then you honestly didn't pay attention in school or don't have much common sense. Any change whether in a game world or r/l can either have positive or negative effects. Changing log off ghosts could have the potential for either a positive or negative effect. It CAN kill the game or it CAN make the game strive. But Z's have to ask whether they want to keep the current population or lose it and see which direction to take. I say that logoff ghosts being removed can have a negative effect in the below scenario. I do of course give this scenario and base it off of no changes BUT log off ghosts being removed.

I am in brax fighting away. A RPK runs in and waits until I am low (good move of course) and at lets just say 80 hps he BOF's). I can't log so I either have to run or stand and fight a PVP ready character since I am loaded to the brim with building armor/regs. So since I know this person has hold/blind I only have two options. RUN or DIE. So I run. Blind/hold BOF EQ DEAD. So in this case and others that can be shown would be NEGATIVE which CAN KILL THE GAME.

Because we all should know that not every single PVP instance involves everyone being ready to roll. Which offsets any or even a close balance of pvp.

Edited flame that wasn't meaningful to conversation.

Edited by RebelM59 2010-02-12 11:20 AM

tierfour04

Posted 2010-02-12 11:34 AM (#20530 - in reply to #20521)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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As a side point, it is actually far from simple, and to say that growing and changing is needed because stagnation is the true problem does not give a dynamic market its due. Lest you forget that it is possible to move in the wrong direction . . .

Ori2010

Posted 2010-02-13 4:02 PM (#20593 - in reply to #20530)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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Standing still is not a good idea either.

This is something I firmly believe is why many people I know stopped playing. It's pointless. You can basically play with no fear with the right mods and there's nothing anyone can do about it. A few mules with truce and an a AMA later and you're back inside to reset your timer and do it all over again. Logging and pvp muling are the 2 biggest exploits being used right now, not wallhacking or speedhacking.

Edited by Ori2010 2010-02-13 4:04 PM

Drask

Posted 2010-02-12 10:50 AM (#20524 - in reply to #20311)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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Gar - 2010-02-11 7:20 PM
Lessened death penalties = pvp is pointless.

So you PvP for penalties.. poor guy.

There's a difference between removing death penalties and balancing them.

So how do you feel when you PvP and your oppenent log off? Isn't that pointless?

XYLUM

Posted 2010-02-12 1:59 PM (#20532 - in reply to #20311)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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No the log off ghost allows for various levels of penalty, and pvp. It ADDS not detracts.

You log someone they get a free pen, you catch them on again that day and relog them now they pen items/%'s.. the more it happens the worse the penalties get. Getting kills when people try to flash on and get safe is part of this game, as is being able to log off when somebody tries to gank you while building. Being forced to take deaths while unregged and no karma is retarded.

Drask

Posted 2010-02-12 2:22 PM (#20534 - in reply to #20532)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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XYLUM - 2010-02-12 3:59 PM

No the log off ghost allows for various levels of penalty, and pvp. It ADDS not detracts.

You log someone they get a free pen, you catch them on again that day and relog them now they pen items/%'s.. the more it happens the worse the penalties get.

That's exactly where it fails. Most PvPers stop PvPing once they get their first free pen until it recharges.

I agree with you about the levels of penalty.. but hey, we can have those levels without ghosts as well!:

First death: No pen (or maybe some stuff)
Second death: Few % and more items
Third death: 0.5 hp, more %
...

Sowy

Posted 2010-02-12 2:18 PM (#20533 - in reply to #20311)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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hehe you guys pvp with "lessened death penalties" right now and just haven't figured it out.

Aero

Posted 2010-02-12 5:24 PM (#20535 - in reply to #20311)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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I fail to see how death penalties make or break a game where PvP is concerned. There were lots of times I would get pissed off for dying in a battleground on WoW. Risk isn't what makes games fun for me, I play for challenges. Regardless of what death penalties exist, the challenge will still be there, and it will always be fun for me.

Back to what Gar said. I have lots of strategies. I rarely do what he commented on. Last couple times I was on I searched for people to kill for 2 hours and everyone was inside a safe spot. My own fault for logging on and thinking I could find PvP. I see no point in sitting around waiting for people to go outside. This is the effect of Meridian 59 death penalties. People do play the numbers game, and wars get super stagnant.

Last thing I want to say is I think that every player should have the chance to accomplish what I have in game. I think if building was easier, and death penalties lowered we would be going in the right direction. I'm not saying have deaths mean nothing, but lets try to get away from people taking this game so seriously. That isn't healthy, people need to have fun or they wont play, and dying/rebuilding isn't fun.

Ken

Posted 2010-02-12 6:19 PM (#20540 - in reply to #20535)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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Aero - 2010-02-12 5:24 PM
People do play the numbers game, and wars get super stagnant.

Thats funny coming out of you

Edited by Ken 2010-02-12 6:19 PM

Aero

Posted 2010-02-12 8:09 PM (#20546 - in reply to #20540)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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lol how? You and Gar both have some strange misconceptions about me. I'm not concerned with numbers. I don't organize ganks with allys all the time. I would prefer to hand you your ass personally trust me. Plus you know I have.

My style doesn't change, I'll push action if I feel like it. I have to resort to hit and runs because of high profile, and everyone I go after will surely log. I'm not going to be a sitting duck at a log off ghost. I don't bait. I hide and wait for the right time.

Gar

Posted 2010-02-13 12:32 PM (#20568 - in reply to #20311)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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Last couple times I was on I searched for people to kill for 2 hours and everyone was inside a safe spot. My own fault for logging on and thinking I could find PvP. I see no point in sitting around waiting for people to go outside.

Eh it happens. I think the glamor of Z&Z's buying the game is fading. When I log on every few days pops are way down from that 100+ they were a few weeks ago. Now like 20 sometimes. Bottom line is unless some changes actually get made the gears of the game are going to grind to a halt again.

Ori2010

Posted 2010-02-13 12:45 PM (#20569 - in reply to #20568)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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Gar - 2010-02-13 12:32 PM
Eh it happens. I think the glamor of Z&Z's buying the game is fading. When I log on every few days pops are way down from that 100+ they were a few weeks ago. Now like 20 sometimes. Bottom line is unless some changes actually get made the gears of the game are going to grind to a halt again.

QFT

And yeah you may not agree with my opinion of the necessary changes, but something needs changing. People came back in the hopes that it was, changing.

Change isn't instant, and proper development takes time. So we wait Patiently. The first release of the Z's is what we are all here in anticipation of and hope it's not so long we all zzzzZZZZZzzZ

Studio Ghibli

Posted 2010-02-13 6:18 PM (#20601 - in reply to #20568)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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Location: Pensacola, FL

I'm on right now and there are a lot of people on. Seventy-something.

Edited by Studio Ghibli 2010-02-13 6:22 PM

Sowy

Posted 2010-02-13 2:30 PM (#20574 - in reply to #20311)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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Just keep in mind people trying to come back may be using Windows 7, 64bit. I know for me at times its almost unplayable. The game can hang and freeze forcing you to have to end process.

RebelM59

Posted 2010-02-15 2:14 PM (#20664 - in reply to #20574)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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Sowy - 2010-02-13 4:30 PM

Just keep in mind people trying to come back may be using Windows 7, 64bit. I know for me at times its almost unplayable. The game can hang and freeze forcing you to have to end process.

I had this problem and I also had an issue where after awhile I couldn't login to meridian. Last night after looking at running processes I had an extra meridian for some reason. Not sure if that will fix your problem, but if you haven't checked might look at it. I killed that one and then was able to login like normal.

Gar

Posted 2010-02-13 3:51 PM (#20591 - in reply to #20311)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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It's already too confusing figuring out who you can and can't attack. Adding a bunch of tags would be even worse, because any character could just buff their jonas shield friend and then attack your cess shielder out of the blue with no shield equipped. Or newbies working buffs in streets would buff some shielder without realizing it and get pk'd.

Ori2010

Posted 2010-02-13 4:08 PM (#20594 - in reply to #20591)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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Yeah it's better to make it simpler. Make all spells check combat flags. If you could hit them it works, if you can't it doesn't. Simple.

Gar

Posted 2010-02-13 4:33 PM (#20598 - in reply to #20311)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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This is something I firmly believe is why many people I know stopped playing. It's pointless. You can basically play with no fear with the right mods and there's nothing anyone can do about it. A few mules with truce and an a AMA later and you're back inside to reset your timer and do it all over again. Logging and pvp muling are the 2 biggest exploits being used right now, not wallhacking or speedhacking.

Yep I call it Safe PvP. As in, it *appears* that people are out and PvPing, but really they're entirely safe thanks to the combination of logging, purify/truce mules, and hacks/bots.

Ori2010

Posted 2010-02-13 5:09 PM (#20599 - in reply to #20598)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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And to make it worse, if you're not participating in "Safe PVP" you're at a significant disadvantage.

Edited by Ori2010 2010-02-13 5:09 PM

Aero

Posted 2010-02-13 6:28 PM (#20603 - in reply to #20311)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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Maybe the gears are slowing down, but I've always noticed a lack of confidence among some so called "pvpers". I give props to the people who show confidence, but really waiting in fams to follow others into battle isn't showing much.

It's funny and no one will be surprised at this fact. I run a high risk of getting gang banged in tos streets on my colored or shielded characters. I leave tos and I am pretty much free to do whatever I want. Problem is my targets still sit in tos.

Studio Ghibli

Posted 2010-02-13 7:31 PM (#20607 - in reply to #20311)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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Location: Pensacola, FL

"It's funny and no one will be surprised at this fact. I run a high risk of getting gang banged in tos streets on my colored or shielded characters. I leave tos and I am pretty much free to do whatever I want. Problem is my targets still sit in tos."

One of the biggest problems with all that guild/shield shit, in my opinion.

You all sit in fucking Fams and battle in Streets.

- edit -

To be fair, I participate in neither except the random PVP gank. Where I'm getting ganked.

But I still think it's a huge bummer that all guild/faction shield is forced into two rooms.

- edit #2 -

There's a thought.

Is it easy enough to attach greater significance to faction land claims?

Edited by Studio Ghibli 2010-02-13 7:37 PM

Aero

Posted 2010-02-13 9:55 PM (#20614 - in reply to #20311)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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Well there isn't anything for people to do. We have maxed characters, we have riija mules get us whatever we need. I love my scout mule, but I love roaming too. Tos is a safety net pvp zone. So many exit/entrance routes. It's really fun to fight there. The point is that a lot of individuals don't commit themselves to the type risks that I or anyone can exploit.

The same reason people love logging so much. They want to avoid as much risk as possible. M59 is the perfect game for avoiding risk, only time you ever have to be vulnerable is building HPs/WC. It's interesting because we want new players, but they will take all the risk while we sit in our safety nets. The game is unbalanced in a risk vs reward sense regarding PVP, and I've said that before. The way that tactics have evolved cause the imbalance.

Serious question though, what hardcore pvper wants to play a game where its normal to log off the game in the middle of fights? If you can't take a step back and look from the outside in, your brainwashed. The game has brainwashed you, any independent mind will tell you that its lame. End of story.

Zantox

Posted 2010-02-13 11:20 PM (#20615 - in reply to #20311)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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Crazy thought -- turn Tos into a PVP free zone, like Marion?

Studio Ghibli

Posted 2010-02-14 6:40 AM (#20622 - in reply to #20311)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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Location: Pensacola, FL

"Crazy thought -- turn Tos into a PVP free zone, like Marion?"

That's half of the issue.

Still also need an incentive/reason to carry the shield fight elsewhere.

Faction flag land thingie!

Sowy

Posted 2010-02-14 7:26 AM (#20624 - in reply to #20311)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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Make xeo attacks half as often, then for the other half, make it an "attack" on the flag of a random zone. The attack could consist of tougher than average NPC faction soldiers of an opposing faction and upon success the flag will be removed outright. Something along those lines. Perhaps the enemy npc soldiers can only be attacked by the faction members of the existing flag.

XYLUM

Posted 2010-02-15 11:41 AM (#20657 - in reply to #20311)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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Posts: 82

I have an idea....

Why don't you guys actually try playing instead of coming to Gilroy's and QQ'ing about what you think needs to be changed, maybe then you might have a realistic idea of the pvp dynamics that are at work, and be able to add some meaningful suggestions as apposed to all these ridiculous ideas that are being proposed.

Ori2010

Posted 2010-02-15 8:49 PM (#20678 - in reply to #20657)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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Blah blah. I log in every day Got pk'd twice yesterday on various toons. Not playing my main, cause it's a joke trying to finish building. Everyone with a char that's built and red wants to prove they can kill a noob who's 150m years old with less than 80 hp.

Sowy

Posted 2010-02-15 11:50 AM (#20660 - in reply to #20311)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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Xylum " QQing " about people making suggestions?

poor nublet

Frognuts

Posted 2010-02-15 12:22 PM (#20661 - in reply to #20311)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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hi

The thing i hate most about death is loosing my %'s. Specially since i got nothing but 4schoolers besides one. Dont mind the hp and full loot drop but the thought of losing % pisses me off. Change it? nah just saying

Beumac

Posted 2010-02-15 8:32 PM (#20676 - in reply to #20311)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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Location: Taikon's DDR Island

I like the idea of making faction land more appealing. That would do wonders for PvP if people used it more often. Pulls attention from tos safe pvp as well which will always be a WIN in my book. These are some of the changes I think would make the game more fun.

Also, I think it's sad how few of the guildhalls get used. People only use them to bot now it seems and anything that could make them worth while for good reasons rather than exploiting would be awesome.

Ori2010

Posted 2010-02-15 9:00 PM (#20679 - in reply to #20676)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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Yeah it's too bad logging makes flag war stupid. A bunch of EQ mules and nobody can ever take a fsking flag except at 3am. You as the defender will always be in a worse position. Now that I say that... Ken I support your stubbornness to defend the indefensible position of solo camping a log ghost. I know what that's like buddy, it's pointless for anything other than baiting the opfor but sometimes you just gotta camp that ghost till it pens.

GH's used to be great for wall spells that had their Angel checking broken, but I guess that's not an issue anymore. Guildhalls are great for resetting pens too... I wonder, I haven't had the opportunity, but iirc can't you rescue to the GH on second rescue? If that's the case that makes chalices pretty good for maintaining safe pvp no matter where you are. Best GH's for safe pvp in that instance are in jasper for quick refill after pen reset. Too bad wallhacking means keeping a GH is pointless... not to mention rooms are by far safer for common storage with silver keys.

Speaking of wallhacking, I checked ivory tower just now and you don't even need a modified client to loot that chest, you never have, the painting covering the chest doesn't cover it from 100% of the available angles...

Edited by Ori2010 2010-02-15 9:22 PM

Gar

Posted 2010-02-15 9:00 PM (#20680 - in reply to #20311)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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Also, I think it's sad how few of the guildhalls get used. People only use them to bot now it seems and anything that could make them worth while for good reasons rather than exploiting would be awesome.

Did you see my Conveyance idea in another thread? I suggested a 10-second focus, 15 mana, no reagents spell that everyone gets (Riija 1), that you cast it on an item or stack in your inventory and the item gets teleported to your guildhall chests if they have room. I think this would make halls drastically more significant, as well as deal a severe blow to mule usage. Think about it - building people could guild up to, while building, teleport the reags they make to the hall, so they wouldn't even need a mule. Then later going in and out offers plenty more opportunities for PvP ;p

By the way, maybe because Z&Z are monitoring wallhack, every hall on 101 is owned right now. Except for one or two I think. I keep tabs, just in case I get some time to do some thievery

Ori2010

Posted 2010-02-15 9:25 PM (#20681 - in reply to #20680)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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I like the idea of a spell of item relocation. It tickles my funny bone and it makes certain places much more playable. Make it Faren as the antithesis of elusion as a lvl 6 spell and you no longer have to have riija to make a decent profit on the island.

Edited by Ori2010 2010-02-15 9:25 PM

Gar

Posted 2010-02-15 11:04 PM (#20683 - in reply to #20311)
Subject: Re: Trevor's Proposed Changes

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Except it kind of loses most of its point if you have to get Faren for it. If you don't automatically have it, then people will just build mules for it again

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